Trad vs Matched headache!!

[PETELEGG]

Hey. I would recomend just putting the stick in the left hand aside and looking at the mechanics behind the stroke in the left hand. Say your hand is at your side and you brng it up kind of gving the thumbs up signal. Fundamentally, the stroke comes from rotating the wrist and keeping the thumb in the thumbs up postion. At first you'll probably feel like having your thumb do the stroke but really it shoud be the wrist. The thumb, first and third fingers don't come into play in a single fundamental stroke. Hope this helps.

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[beats]

you know i' ve noticed that a lot of today's drummers who use trad. grip all have a different approach to it. this grip is difficult to master, and just as hard to explain in words. phil if you care to,e-mail me at [email protected] and if you come up with some more pointed questions about the grip, i will try my best to impart some info to you.(ive'been using this grip for 11 years, and have approached many different teachers/drummers about this technique), because there is NO standards 4 the grip, but there are a few different approaches that can be combined to really facilitate the grip. most everyone on this message board have some very cool ideas,so you should check back. but here are some things you shuold definetly do: find a damn good teacher who uses trad.grip, check out dave weckl's vid. "how to develop technique", check out some vids. with trad. grip players(if you contact me i can give you a list), check out Steve's gallery sites (or any internet drum sites w. photo galleries),and check out vinnie's/weckl's left hand-it may give you some insight just to observe. i am of the opinion that trad. grip is more versatile than matched. you think differently with the grip. anyway, i know the frustration you are experiencing, but you can overcome it with patience and diligence.peace.......beats

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[PhilCarter]

Hi,

Could anyone give me a little advice on trad grip control? I have being played matched grip over 20yrs (self taught) and recently got into a self asessment/re-inventing oneself vibe (recommended if you feel stuck in your musical ways). I would very much like to understand trad due to the sort of stuff ive been checking (relatively new to the Vinnie/Dave thing, most inspiring), and also from my small futile attempts at breaking my matched grip habit, my playing seems to feel more light and comfortable around the kit, although i lose a lot of power (hows does Copeland hit the snare so hard like that?). I realise that most individuals probably have a different way of holding stick/using finger control. I have found that my bounce of my left hand is very poor and also my hand slowly slips down the shaft (oerr!) of the stick. I have read some information off the net on basic stick control for trad, but i would like to hear any views/pointers first hand from any trad users here. Im currently using 5B wood tip sticks, and playing trad feels like small branch 30ZZ. Are there any ways to build up the strength of yr trad grip? This may be a worn out subject matter for the most of you but any help would be very much appreciated.

Thank You.

PS Vinnie was playing the UK last year (until it got cancelled due to Sept 11th). Does anyone know if any dates have been confirmed for a Zildian clinic in UK this year?

[Steve Holmes]

Unfortunately theres no short cuts to this thing. It takes a lot of time and dedication. A commitment really. Thats how it was for me when I "chose" traditional grip.
Theres no substitute for just playing. Anything. Watching TV? I'd have sticks and a pillow. Or just one stick and literally just tapping notes on the couch with my left hand. Anything to just keep the muscles working (which means their slowly getting used to the motion as well).
Specifically I break it down to three aspects that are probably obvious: Fingers, wrist, and arm.
I pay attention to all of them individually and then see that they are working together as a team. Fingers for finess and cleanliness, wrist for speed and control, and arm for power.
The two things that really had me build a SOLID foundation for my left hand is marching band in high school (hard core drum corpse shit) and jazz independance. I went through Chapins "Advanced Techniques For The Modern Drummer" and Ted Reeds "Progresive Steps To Syncopation" for Jazz and they both give the left hand a workout both technically as well as independance wise.
As far as power, its my opinion that one can get a great loud backbeat by hitting the right kind of rimshot, and not needing to hit it that hard. Power does not always equel the speed of impact. If it sounds powerful than what else do you need.

Just like anything it will come with time and practice.

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webmaster,
www.houseofdrumming.com

[PhilCarter]

Pete/Beats/Steve,

Thank you for the insight on yr personal opinions on my topic. Its clear to me its going to be far more difficult than i thought to change to trad. The main reason for me wanting to change grip is as Beats comments: that the feel of the approach to the kit changes, even more inventive if that makes sense, even with my lack of control at the present using trad i can sense this. All those ideas logged in my head i dont think i can play matched, its like learning again! I think you can be more inventive with trad because u lay back a little and become more musical in yr playing. I was very much into power and dynamics, heavily influenced by the likes of Bonham, who was quoted to say its all in the swing. He didnt actually hit the drums hard physically but the swing provided the blockbusting power he had. I would imagine that maybe its almost possible to get the same feel with matched grip as trad if you have true swing (which i dont), but perhaps not the same speed around the kit....(although tell that to Dennis!). Thank you for yr views, i will give it my best shot... (i will e-mail u shortly beats).

By the way.... any views on natural breathing technique when using more oxygen? Im 33 but i shouldnt be struggling that much! Any ideas?

[jonthibault]

I just started using trad, too, and I've found that just from playing paradiddles, the ole' six stroke roll (RLLRRL-repeated), etc., it started tightening up. Also, just playing that way constently tends to help; don't try all the fancy stuff and start off slow. I'm still getting used to it, but the minute I could do the Weckl finger control thing, it was a great feeling. Plus, trad grip looks really, really cool.

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Jack

[TooJazzy]

-RLrr LRll
-rLRr lRLl
-rlRR lrLL
-RlrR LrlL

I have found that these exerices really helped me to get more power and control to trad.grip.

Big letters are accented notes.

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[MethodAir]

In terms of getting a good power stroke playing traditional, the fingers do play an important part. I use the same philosophy which creates speed to also create a loud pop. It's definitely not all about how high you raise the stick either. I've got a video example at http://www.electricmountain.com/home.htm

MethodAir


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[PhilCarter]

Lets see if this one makes any sense to anyone........

Using trad in my left hand, does the stick fit into the slot between my index and third finger, or just balance on the third? If i balance it on the third its very painful to begin with because im using it as a kind of platform to bounce off. Also my first finger has a habit sticking up in the air rather than keeping the stick against my thumb, does this happen when you try to gather speed? Is the thumb used as the main control for the bounce by 'flicking' the stick with it? Maybe u can help me with these q's Beats.

Also this one to Pete Legg, if i do the thumbs up way this means that the swing of the stick is almost directly left to right as opposed to forward and back when playing matched? Does the starting position of the hand have to be quite high up? Ive noticed Dave W seems to have his left arm quite high (for a normal sticking anyway).

Its very difficult to explain in words what i mean but if any one can relate to these q's your help would be appreciated.

Method air..... nice stuff man. respect

Peace....... Phil

Thanx dudes

Phil

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[This message has been edited by PhilCarter (edited January 24, 2002).]

[This message has been edited by PhilCarter (edited January 24, 2002).]

[PETELEGG]

Sorry for the lack of clarification Phil. If you've seen the way Freddie Gruber talks about joints and mechanics then maybe this will make sense. A stroke in either hand starts with he hand in front of the face or neck, palm inward, then the elbow lowering the arm while at the same time turnng the hand so that the pinky is forced outward and the thumb inward. If you do it relatively fast you see that the wrist is just turning back and forth as I attempted to describe in the earlier post. It turns more into a throwing of the hand like you are trying to get something sticky off of your hand by shaking it.
You probably have already developed the up down motion of the elbow but it seems the new motion to be combined with that is the wrist motion. Hope this helps.

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